Chunkat

Thanks for taking the time to go into all this detail. If nothing else I will keep an open mind that everything we know in the west is wrong, and hope that a world led by China is a world worth wanting.

I wouldn’t have thought open homosexuality a possibility in present day Iran.

Men kissing men in public, holding hands, hugging, slapping each other’s bottoms (probably). But always no-homo. That’s the usual way.

If things are indeed that progressive, like the Iran before the current theocratic government, everything I know is wrong.

But do you do it in public, online or offline? What about protests? What about strikes?

Where are the independent news organizations and invitations to during media to prove to the world everything we think is wrong with the Converse government is a lie?

Why the great firewall of China?

You’re right that’s a thing, it isn’t that.

My Chinese friends living in New Zealand as dual citizens are afraid to criticize the Chinese government even in private online conversations. That says a lot, I think.

And what do you think will take its place, and how?

That is the most disingenuous interpretation of my comment I can imagine.

You’re finding enemies in your own trenches my friend. The genocide in Gaza is absolutely horrific, and I am not making any excuses for it.

I’m just saying we live in a better world now as a whole than years past, recent years notwithstanding. Think mid-Obama as maybe the most hopeful time in recent memory as far as advancement toward the Global Goals was concerned, and yeah I know Obama was still bombing foreign countries in the name of anti-terror and killing innocents to get at Obama Bin Laden.

Do you find any optimism in the world or are you pure nihilism?

Yeah, it’s shit. But if we let bad be the enemy of better, we’ll never get anywhere.

Do you think a world without the institutions o mentioned would do any better for Palestinians?

As t least there’s still widespread support and sentiment among the populations of the western world, and Israel is very much a pariah state in many nations’ eyes. It’s just not within most nations’ power to intervene.

Even then intervention is tricky. We don’t people to do what Trump did in Venezuela, because history has shown it doesn’t lead to better long term outcomes.

Institutions like NATO and the ICC, global trade agreements, security guarantees, economic interdependencies, multiculturalism, air travel, the infrastructure of the internet. The fact a bridge collapse or building fire might make international headlines. Movies and culture from around the world being mainstream.

What makes you not think so?

Indeed. But the general direction of world order has been moving against that sort of thing, and increasingly, many serving US politicians and citizens. Trump is undermining both US and global progress away from the worst traits of human hegemonic History and putting them back on full display.

Sure, it’s better than the alternative. But it still makes this move functionally meaningless aside from the reasons I mentioned.

It’s possible he’s just making a deal with Maduro, who he’ll send back to Venezuela as his pawn. I guess we’ll see.

Problem is, Maduro is a figurehead. He’s not a mastermind. The regime will carry on without him. Nothing has been achieved by this kidnapping except a threat to Venezuela, and a message to China and Russia that this is how the world works now.

Edit: Also a lot of innocent or mostly innocent people have been murdered. Trump is a literal murderer.

That’s why I vote Green my friend. We’re on the same side. I just dont know if the existing stable “socialist” nations you cite really meet the definition or are any closer to the outcomes I’m sure you and I agree are indicators of real success.

I’ll read what you’ve linked though, and share my thoughts. Cheers!

Apparently nobody does, because I don’t see them attracting massive numbers of immigrants. But that could not be for lack of desire - I don’t really know. I do know Chinese people and their feelings vary - we have lots of Chinese migrants and multigenerational citizens. You seem to have access to a very patriotic perspective they don’t share with you.

Care to share with me a well sources explainer video or something to educate me? I have gotten most of my recent understanding from PolyMatter, and other non-Chinese sources.

I’m judging here on the basis of adherence to the most progressive interpretations of Marx and other philosophers and thinkers, and how it’s going for the people in each nation more than anything - social justice and equality, healthcare, welfare, personal freedoms, security, standard of living, etc.

Tell me, where do you live? I’m fortunate enough to be from New Zealand. I certainly wouldn’t want to trade my passport for any other country, or wish to have been born there. Maybe Luxembourg then I’d be stacked I guess, and maybe be able to do more to help the rest of the world get their shit together.

I don’t disagree that the west got to where it is brutalizing everyone else. That is beside the point when we’re talking about the present.

China is a terrible example of democracy and of communism. It has some effective social programmes and top down organization which has been efficient at rapid economic growth and reducing poverty, but there remain severe class divides, suppression of minorities and in some cases outright slavery with the Uighurs. Forget about LGBT rights too, of course. China may yet emerge as the paragon of human civilization the way the world is going now, but it’s a few serious reforms away from that, including having actually democratically elected representatives.

Any other examples?

Name one AES state that isn’t authoritarian, and suppressing of numerous human rights and dignities, that a greater percentage of the population enjoys in the west.

From what I can tell, few people are lining up to move to these countries, now or in the past. That suggests something isn’t working.

Which ones? Cuba is alright I guess.

I’m not. Fascism is a variant of authoritarianism, and describes very well how the USSR, China, and other successful so-called communisms have operated.

“Fascism is characterized by support for a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived interest of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.” -Wikipedia

I believe in left wing ideology, it’s just only ever seemed to emerge successfully from non-violent system-internal populism. Changing of hearts and minds in other words. Never through violence. Which makes sense, because proper humanitarian leftism is obviously antithetical to ends justify the means approaches to societal problem solving.