MudMan

He shipped enough clunkers (and terrible design decisions) that I never bought the mythification of Jobs.

In any case, the Deck is a different beast. For one, it’s the second attempt. Remember Steam Machines? But also, it’s very much an iteration on pre-existing products where its biggest asset is pushing having an endless budget and first party control of the platform to use scale for a pricing advantage.

It does prove that the system itself is not the problem, in case we hadn’t picked up on that with Android and ChromeOS. The issue is having a do-everything free system where some of the do-everything requires you to intervene. That’s not how most people use Windows (or Android, or ChromeOS), and it’s definitely not how you use any part of SteamOS unless you want to tinker past the official support, either. That’s the big lesson, I think. Valve isn’t even trying to push Linux, beyond their Microsoft blood feud. As with Google, it’s just a convenient stepping stone in their product design.

What the mainline Linux developer community can learn from it, IMO, is that for onboarding coupling the software and hardware very closely is important and Linux should find a way to do that on more product categories, even if it is by partnering with manufacturers that won’t do it themselves.

You got it. The moment you surface the idea that there are multiple distros or DEs you’ve missed the goal the thread is suggesting. Presintalled, customized software built for the hardware is the way to ease people in with zero tweaking, which is crucial for newcomers.

See, this is a tough one. Privacy concerns are legitimate, but also, when people keep reminding that Meta was a key player in acts of terror and genocide what is often not said is that a lot of it happened over Whatsapp groups and direct messages, as in India and Burkina Faso. Direct messaging apps are also social media.

I don’t have a solution for this. It’s a mess of an issue and honestly, I don’t know that I trust anybody with a strong, aggressive position one way or the other.

I genuinely think Linux misses a beat by not having a widely available distro that is a) very closely tied to specific hardware and b) mostly focused on web browsing and media watching. It’s kinda nuts and a knock on Linux devs that Google is running away with that segment through both Android and ChromeOS. My parents aren’t on Windows anymore but for convenience purposes the device that does that for them is a Samsung tablet.

I keep trying to explain how Linux advocacy gets the challenges of mainstream Linux usage wrong and, while I appreciate the fresh take here, I’m afraid that’s still the case.

Effectively this guide is: lightly compromise your Windows experience for a while until you’re ready, followed by “here’s a bunch of alien concepts you don’t know or care about and actively disprove the idea that it’s all about the app alternatives.”

I understand why this doesn’t read that way to the “community”, but parse it as an outsider for a moment. What’s a snap? Why are they bad? Why would I hate updates? Aren’t updates automatic as they are in Windows? Why would I ever pick the hardware-incompatible distros? What’s the tradeoff supposed to be, does that imply there is a downside to Mint over Ubuntu? It sure feels like I need to think about this picking a distro thing a lot more than the headline suggested. Also, what’s a DE and how is that different to a distro? Did they just say I need a virtual machine to test these DE things before I can find one that works? WTF is that about?

Look, I keep trying to articulate the key misunderstanding and it’s genuinely hard. I think the best way to put it is that all these “switch to Linux, it’s fun!” guides are all trying to onboard users to a world of fun tinkering as a hobby. And that’s great, it IS fun to tinker as a hobby, to some people. But that’s not the reason people use Windows.

If you’re on Windows and mildly frustrated about whatever MS is doing that week, the thing you want is a one button install that does everything for you, works first time and requires zero tinkering in the first place. App substitutes are whatever, UI changes and different choices in different DEs are trivial to adapt to (honestly, it’s all mostly Windows-like or Mac-like, clearly normies don’t particularly struggle with that). But if you’re out there introducing even a hint of arguments about multiple technical choices, competing standards for app packages or VMs being used to test out different desktop environments you’re kinda missing the point of what’s keeping the average user from stepping away from their mainstream commercial OS.

In fairness, this isn’t the guide’s fault, it’s all intrinsic to the Linux desktop ecosystem. It IS more cumbersome and convoluted from that perspective. If you ask me, the real advice I would have for a Windows user that wants to consider swapping would be: get a device that comes with a dedicated Linux setup out of the box. Seriously, go get a Steam Deck, go get a System76 laptop, a Raspberry Pi or whatever else you can find out there that has some flavor of Linux built specifically for it and use that for a bit. That bypasses 100% of this crap and just works out of the box, the way Android or ChromeOS work out of the box. You’ll get to know whether that’s for you much quicker, more organically and with much less of a hassle that way… at the cost of needing new hardware. But hey, on the plus side, new hardware!

I am cringing pretty hard, doesn that count as “emotional”?

I sincerely don’t care enough about the fate of F-Droid to spend too long litigating the parts of this strategy that seem ill-conceived. If you think that implies hostility… well, it doesn’t. Hell, I hope I’m wrong, it’d be great to have a good indie storefront on Android to use as a default. I just don’t think as described this is it at all.

Otherwise, cope as you need. I have explained the bits I think you’re misunderstanding, I just don’t want to repeat that over and over because man, I need to have an online interaction that doesn’t devolve into that at some point. And I don’t want to explain why not wanting to talk to you any longer is not conceding the point, so this is the last time I’ll express that, too. Cool? Cool.

That’s a weird take, man. By that metric no online conversation can ever end.

I’ve made my point, I’ve said my piece. I’m not super emotionally invested on F-Droid’s success, either. This seems like a bad move in a few different ways, and it’s one that interferes with how I use the platform for the reasons I’ve stated. You don’t want that to be the case, I get that, but I don’t need your permission to feel that what’s being proposed here is going to mess with how I use it.

I also don’t need your permission to make the case that a store of monetized apps is a store of monetized apps and is competing with huge, polished, integrated alternatives in a way that F-Droid currently doesn’t. You’re mostly arguing with the kind of just-use-GIMP wishful thinking where it’s feasible for people to step out of their comfort zone or make morality-driven consumption choices en masse. I don’t feel I need to argue with you about it, though. It’s gonna go the way it’s going to go. The part that bums me out the most, as I said, is as an illustration for how self-reinforcing the niche position of FOSS can be sometimes. Otherwise, you do you.

I genuinely have nothing new to add to this conversation. All my previous points stand and they either address those objections already or the caveats are self-evident.

If anything I’ll say that seeing the defensiveness come together in real time is really helping me understand many recurring narratives happening around this space. I suggest we call this process “the GIMP effect”.

My point is I don’t care about the intentions of the project, I care about the piece of software that comes out the other end, regardless of whether that’s intended or not. A store with a mix of commercial and noncommercial software is just an Android store, like all the other Play alternatives. A repository of non commercial software where you know all the stuff you find fits a specific set of properties is a different thing, and I don’t need to read what the developers say online to feel that difference in the software.

It´s fundamentally harder to see the difference between Play and F-Droid if both have free, monetized and ad-based applications than if Play is mostly monetized and F-Droid is all noncommercial. If F-Droid steps away from that then it has a lot of homework to do and it enters a direct competition that is easy to understand: there are many stores, Play is the best one and the default, so why would I be using another one? If it was up to me, I’d even consider doing this as a separate app and keeping F-Droid as a dedicated version to remain in the position it already has, even if for developers they´re all uploading their software to the same back-end.

F-Droid now has a good answer to that. The version they´re proposing, regardless of their intentions, does not.

Does that help clarify where I´m coming from?

I think this train of thought fundamentally misunderstands how usability works and how positioning works. But hey, I don’t own this, I don’t have a stake on this and I already have F-Droid installed. At a glance it seems like a bad move that makes a thing I use less useful and more like a bunch of things I don’t use. We’ll see where it goes.

To clarify, I’m making a two step argument: One, I will only install a second store on my phone if that store serves a specific use case I don’t get from the first one (which is Play by default, since it comes preinstalled). Two, if F-Droid is going to sacrifice the clear message that it’s the place for noncommercial apps, then it must carry the same apps Play does, it needs to carry ALL of them so I can make it my default store.

So I understand what you’re saying, my point is that this is not a viable value proposition for me. F-Droid is positioned as the safe place for noncommercial software. If it’s no longer going to be that, then it’s picking the same fight with Google Play that the Samsung or Amazon stores do, and it’s just as likely to lose that fight. The reason it isn’t doing that at the moment isn’t its moral high ground, it’s that it has a clear position that doesn’t overlap with Play’s: noncommercial software.

Those are all advantages for developers and activists. End users don’t care or need to care. As an end user the only reason for keeping two stores in my phone is that one does a thing the other one doesn’t, functionally. That’s why Samsung can keep putting their dumb store on their phones forever but people just don’t engage with it.

Now, unlike the Samsung store when I was on a Samsung phone, F-Droid is something I do use, because there is a clear use case there: Play for all the commercial apps, F-Droid for non-commercial alternatives and a stuff that Google doesn’t allow on Play for whatever reason.

If F-Droid wants to make a push for being my only store, they better provide all the functionality, support, variety and convenience Play does, because Play comes pre-installed. If I can’t go to F-Droid to be guaranteed to not have to deal with payments or MTX, then it better have every single thing I need. I’m talking every game, every app, every legacy piece of software. It better have the same one-click payment convenience I get from Google Pay. And it better still have a default option to search for completely free apps, or I’ll have to go find a F-Droid alternative that does that for when I want to be sure I’m not getting any hidden fees with my app.

I’m not sure I can be as pliant as others here. Being less of an activist and more of a user of convenience, if I am making PayPal payments somebody better give me a reason why I’m not just using the same store that came in by default with my phone.

I’ll take persona, although it’s been way too many games with the same setup. Ditto for the Trails series.

Honestly, I don’t think it got any better than ATB systems in FF 6 and 7. Everybody else is either riffing on those or spending so much money they think they can’t be those and need to be Devil May Cry instead.

Man, this is only tangentially related, but I’ve slowly drifted away from the garbage app economy over the years, huh? That paragraph literally had me going “Oh, right, people use Instagram on their phones and stuff”, for different things like three or four times. No bearing to your point, but I will give myself some props.

Anyway, yeah, I’m not gonna stand here and say that iOS doesn’t make more sense as a starting point, both due to their hardware and software consolidation AND their US-centric nature that tends to make it a more profitable first stop (although that margin has narrowed) or that full legacy Android support isn’t more technically challenging. I think you’re overrepresenting the memory issue, though. You’d be hard pressed to find a dirt cheap Android phone with less than what? 4/6 Gigs of RAM? For mobile apps that will condition how fast things load and how many background apps get held before being flushed, but it’s not gonna be a massive challenge to make something run. And if it is, you should get that under control regardless.

About the rest of that list, I do think it’s interesting how half-remembered it is. For a while Instagram photos “just looked better” to the point of it becoming a meme, but that hasn’t been a thing on major Android phones for a couple of iterations, so it shouldn’t matter to anybody buying a new phone today even if you’re on Instagram (don’t be on Instagram). I don’t know about the “chatGPT” or “chatGPT competitors”. Gemini, Copilot, ChatGPT and Perplexity have all been on Android for a while, not sure if it was all day one, but it was all certainly timely and available when I wanted to check it out. As for the LTT thing, I’m guessing from a google search, but was that about pop-up video being free on iPhone but part of the subscription on Android? Wasn’t that a regional thing? In any case it wasn’t a lack of support, it seems it was a guideline compliance thing. Not that I use the default Youtube app, but I’m guessing the Youtube guy wouldn’t point that out.

All of the minutia aside, I will say that as an Android user it’s been a long time since I went “wow, I wish that very useful app/feature/implementation” was available on my phone. I think the only things that came close to that were a couple of Apple Arcade exclusives I wish I could have purchased outright. It’s no question that there is an extra demand for coverage and support on Android, but at this point the market is large enough and the processes well understood enough that this is a development issue, not an end user issue. By and large, mobile apps you want and hear about are available right away and work just fine across devices.

Oh, gotcha. Yeah, direct phone-to-phone transfers have been rare and mostly replaced by cloud shares for me. It’s just easier to add the file in question to some cloud destination that allows link sharing instead.

Whose mandate? Are you going to make a law saying you can’t customize Google’s base Android?

It’s an open source OS, manufacturers offer crappy support because they want customizations and proprietary software but don’t want to have to spend a bunch of engineering time to keep pace with Google’s reference spec. Samsung does, but that’s because they’re the literal largest phone manufacturer on the planet.

But Google can’t be out there saying you don’t get to use Android code if you don’t offer timely support for a decade. There’s a reason years of security updates are now a declared selling point, the only force to drive it is market pressure. At most you could regulate that you HAVE to support swapping OSs on phones, but you can’t just target that at Android and not Apple, and Apple would buy themselves a nuke to fight against that one.

Yeah, unlike Windows this isn’t a user choice. It comes down to manufacturer support. I don’t know what you do to make this better, especially in the context of newer Android updates being lighter on major user-facing features.

Are they worse? This seems outdated, but then, I haven’t used an iOS phone as a daily driver, so maybe there’s some magic making the iOS version of Google Maps so much better? I mean, it is true that it’s harder to make Android apps, but a lot of that has to do with displays being arbitrary aspect ratios and resolutions across dozens of devices, more than anything else, at least if you’re focusing on mainstream devices.

On the other issue, why not go Samsung? They are matching Google’s “7 years of updates” thing and they DO have a pretty solid native desktop mode. I don’t use Samsung devices these days for other reasons, but if that’s the bar, I think they’re meeting it.

To share from where to where? For sharing with your own computer at home I just have a SMB share and I use Cx File Explorer to access it like I would on a PC. For direct phone to phone sharing… I haven’t had to do that in ages, so I wouldn’t know. I have a number of solutions for cloud file sharing that are platform agnostic, though.